The Grand Challengers Podcast Episode #39

Spinoza, science, spirituality – confronting ‘displacements’ in planning urban nature, climate and heat

Guest: Lucas Gobatti

February 11th, 2025

Episode Teaser

Introduction

“… I see a little bit of my work in research as a spiritual path for me as well …”

Lucas Gobatti is a PhD Researcher at ETH Zurich and the Swiss Federal Institute of Aquatic Science & Technology, Eawag. As a trained architect, civil engineer and urban planner with a love for philosophy, the outdoors and sprituality, Lucas’ journey to date has been about better understanding how we can adapt cities and their societies towards better climate regulation, environmental protection and human wellbeing. His work delves into the intersection of effective urban planning in the global north and south and nature-based solutions, in particular, the links between water, vegetation and heat.

On today’s show, Lucas and I discuss how Einstein, Spinoza and Karl Marx have profoundly affected his personal worldview and how he balances science and spirituality in his day-to-day. We uncover planning challenges and the state of nature in Brazil and dive into some key results of his early work on how we can use vegetation and water to create more liveable envionments and avoid ‘displacing’ the climate challenge.

Biography

Lucas Gobatti is a trained architect, civil engineer and urban planner. After studying at the University of Sao Paulo, Brazil, he moved to ETH Zurich and the Swiss Federal Institute of Aquatic Science & Technology (Eawag) where he is currently pursuing a PhD in environmental engineering on the topic of urban heat mitigation and the role of blue-green infrastructures. Lucas’ broad, interdisciplinary experience has allowed him to embark on numerous projects looking into the planning of more liveable cities and multi-functional infrastructures to support climate regulation, environmental protection and human wellbeing, highlighting the important role that water plays in creating sustainable cities.

Lucas is also a passionate outdoors person, who enjoys mountaineering, nature photography, with Zen Buddhism and samba forming part of his day-to-day life. He actively enjoys sharing his research, life and insights on social media and his own personal website.

Resources Related to the Episode

  • So apparently the bookmark by folding the top part of the page is called a ‘dog ear’ bookmark or ‘donkey ear’ in German
  • Einstein has many biographies, one good one is by Walter Isaacson [View on Amazon]
    • He obtained his PhD from the University of Zurich in 1905
    • He took up a chair in theoretical physics in 1912 at ETH Zurich
  • “Ethics” by Benedictus de Spinoza [View on Amazon], certainly on my to read list!
  • What is Zen Buddhism?
  • Some key works from Karl Marx and related authors on his work:
  • Lucas’ Publications on Green Roofs:
    • Gobatti, L., Martins, J.R.S., Pereira, M.C.S. and Leite, B.C.C., 2022. Real-time sensing and low-cost experimental setup for water quantity investigation in Nature-based Solutions. Blue-Green Systems, 4(2), pp.75-88. [Open Access Link]
    • Gobatti, L. and Leite, B.C.C., 2022. Vegetated roofs rainwater management experimental research in Brazil: A georeferenced exhaustive review of a continental-size country. Cleaner Production Letters, 3, p.100013. [Open Access Link]
    • Gobatti, L. and Leite, B.C.C., 2023. Unmanaged vegetated roofs hydrological performance in subtropical areas: An investigation in São Paulo, Brazil. Science of the Total Environment, 874, p.162417. [Open Access Link]
  • More about São Paulo, Brazil
  • We refer to Episode 23 with Markus Vogl, who reflects on his experience in Buenos Aires. Check out his episode for a comparison.
  • Lucas’ ongoing work on urban heat mitigation:
    • Gobatti, L., Bach, P.M., Scheidegger, A. and Leitão, J.P., 2023. Using satellite imagery to investigate Blue-Green Infrastructure establishment time for urban cooling. Sustainable Cities and Society, 97, p.104768. [Open Access Link]
    • The YouTube Video accompanying this work that we produced together is available on my channel
    • Lucas’ short on the topic can be found on Nature Portfolio’s YouTube Channel (Plant a tree yesterday)
  • We refer to Episode 35 with Yannick Back for another episode on the topic of urban heat. Check out his episode for more depth on the topic.
  • All about the EnviMet model that Lucas is actively using in his work
  • The Köppen-Geiger Climate Zones help us understand how different cities differ in terms of climate, here’s a useful article
  • Lucas’ Photography Project in the Amazon can be seen on his website
  • What is meditation? [Calm Blog] [Headspace]
    • I personally use Calm, but have used Headspace in the past, two very good apps to help you get started in meditation.
    • You can also check out Episode 7 with Abishek Narayan, where we also discuss the topic in detail as well as the practice of Yoga.
  • More on Samba – also check out Lucas’ Instagram for some occasional reels on his Samba group!
  • The ETH Guidelines on authorship in scientific publications and general scientific integrity
  • “Be water, my friend” – Bruce Lee – a nice book I read on his teachings was written by his daughter Sharon Lee with the same title [View on Amazon]
    • Lucas referred to Heraclitus, a Greek philosopher [Wikipedia]

Episode Chapters

(Chapters are embedded in the episode for quick access, click this to expand and view all chapters and time stamps)
  • 0:00 Intro
  • 1:59 Guest Intro & Books
  • 6:38 Einstein, Spinoza, Spirituality and the Laws of Nature
  • 13:20 Karl Marx, spatial inequalities and cities
  • 17:28 Late Marx, Kohei Saito and the three displacements
  • 21:19 Microsimulation and agents as Lucas’ entry point
  • 24:17 From Altruism to Green Roofs and Stormwater
  • 27:23 Brazil’s Nature-based solutions Trajectory
  • 30:13 Shedding light on a different planning landscape
  • 35:08 Lucas’ Urban Heat Research – Cooling establishment time
  • 39:48 Lucas’ Urban Heat Research – Role of water and irrigation
  • 43:31 Experimenting with microclimate models
  • 46:03 The Brasilandia District Project
  • 50:10 Next steps in Lucas’ Research
  • 52:10 Q&A Start
  • 52:26 What do you define as innovation?
  • 54:46 Key event, book, person
  • 59:49 Time Management
  • 1:07:54 Favourite childhood memory
  • 1:09:49 Biggest challenge in career to date
  • 1:13:14 Advice for young professionals
  • 1:15:37 What would you like to be remembered for?
  • 1:23:35 Where can people find you?
  • 1:24:35 Final Message
  • 1:25:31 Outro

Connect with Lucas Gobatti

Related Episodes

Episode #2 – Scott Lloyd
Cohabitation and close encounters with myths in urban design
(Related Topics: urban design; architecture; planning)
Episode #16 – Mattheos Santamouris
A ‘hot’ topic for ‘cooler’ cities – high performance architecture to combat urban overheating
(Related Topics: urban heat; climate change; heat mitigation)
Episode #23 – Markus Vogl
To give ‘space’ – from a library to collaborative urban transformation and rethinking the architect’s role
(Related Topics: Latin America; informal settlements; planning; design)
Episode #35 – Yannick Back
The answers are beyond the “clouds” – the water-energy link for climate adaptation in a world of data ubiquity
(Related Topics: urban heat; blue-green infrastructure; satellite data)

Credits